Filter by location to see Industrial Engineer salaries in your area. Back in 2010, the (American) National Society of Professional Engineers reported the increasing engineering salaries: New bachelors degree holders had a median annual salary just shy of $55K. How much do you get paid? The average starting salary for these Engineering graduates was $78,159. ***Support us by subscribing*** How much does make in a year?In this video, we examine the average Industrial Engineer salary in 2019. Salaries for Related Job Titles . Posts must be related to the Industrial Engineering field. An Industrial Engineering reported making $3,101 per month. The average Industrial Engineer I salary in Georgia is $67,669 as of November 25, 2020, but the range typically falls between $62,187 and $73,967. They are the ones who get the higher starting salary, the higher raises per promotion. Year after year, engineering jobs are paid the highest average starting salary.According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) engineers have a median annual wage of $91,010 and the engineering field projects to have employment growth of nearly 140,000 new jobs over the next decade. Usually if I’m working on collecting data, I would use a sample size calculator to try and determine how much data I should collect in order to show where we stand, but I don’t know if something like that would apply to this. Absolutely not. Additionally, Industrial Engineer I typically reports to supervisor or manager. $5k stock bonus. Major 2018–19 Average, Rounded to Nearest $100 (# of Respondents) The national average salary for a Industrial Engineering Manager is $85,423 in United States. Reddit software engineering vs computer science degree. Basically it's very comfortable but not extravagant. Only Michigan’s industrial engineer employment numbers exceed those of Texas and California. Average industrial engineering salaries stand at about $64,000, with mid-career average salaries at $84,000. Engineers apply the knowledge of math & science to design and manufacture maintainable systems used to solve specific problems. My commute is literally 2 minutes and I'm either mountain biking (skiing in winter), climbing, fly fishing, or drinking at one of the 24 world class breweries after work every day (3 within 1000ft of work). Are industrial engineers in demand? Salary estimates are based on 59 salaries submitted anonymously to Glassdoor by Industrial Engineer employees. Industrial engineering is one of the fastest growing and most sought after professions in the world, and our graduates work in industries from manufacturing to service to banking. How much student loan debt do you have? Four years out of school I was making ~60k/yr. There are currently an estimated 257,899 industrial engineers in the United States. I have a bachelors in IE from Purdue and am currently severely underemployed. Additional Pay . Industrial Engineering: Pros and Cons. The average Industrial Engineer I salary in Georgia is $67,669 as of November 25, 2020, but the range typically falls between $62,187 and $73,967. As far as student loan debt and what you're comfortable paying...that's a pretty personal decision that I think will probably be unique for anyone answering the question. Salary ranges can vary widely depending on the city and many other important factors, including education, certifications, additional skills, the number of years you have spent in your profession. The American Institute for Medical and Biomedical Engineering says bioengineers in research and development currently make the most on average at nearly $102,600. Learn more about Industrial Management and Applied Engineering. One of us has been in telecom for 20 yrs, no breaks. In this article, we profile the 30 best online master’s in industrial engineering or systems engineering programs. I just want to hear some thoughts on it because I feel it’s too pessimistic to be true “The salaries aren't that high. Phone Number: 319-467 … With aerospace, you're very limited to where you can live, and the current options are shit. The median starting salary with a B.S. I claimed that engineers make a high starting salary and have great jobs on graduation on my schools subreddit and here was an answer I received by an alum. 85k/yr +16.5k/yr car allowance + 15% max bonus + super + 2.3k/yr beer. Offerings: B.S. A … 10000+ employees . Press J to jump to the feed. Search Industrial engineering consultant jobs. Engineering Manager Salary. An Industrial Engineer reported making $75,000 per year. We try to live moderately frugal so that we can get the house paid off sooner rather than later. What type of lifestyle do you live, and how does your salary and debt affect that? Industrial Engineering (IE) $21.45 (77) $21.17 (8) Materials Science and Engineering (MATSE) $17.08 (6) $18.40 (23) Mechanical Engineering (ME) $21.97 (160) $20.00 (144) Mechanical and Nuclear Engineering (ME/NUCE) N/A (N/A) $22.25 (1) Mining Engineering (MNGE) N/A (N/A) N/A (N/A) Nuclear Engineering (NUCE) $21.00 (5) $21.00 (2) Petroleum Engineering (PNGE) N/A (N/A) $18.00 (6) … The lowest-paid 10 percent earned $37.23 or $77,440 annually. 2021 Best Colleges for Industrial Engineering. You'll probably start off $60-$70K if you're lucky. Zero parking and crime out the ass. Our reputation for intellectual rigor, our talent for developing technologies that improve quality of life and our entrepreneurial spirit are reflected in our faculty and students, and by our physical environment. Hello, I am currently majoring in IE interested in doing operations research once I finish my study in college. Department of Industrial and Systems Engineering 3016 Seamans Center for the Engineering Arts and Sciences Iowa City, Iowa, 52242. For me it was a choice of being miserable for 30 years and having a healthy retirement or living an active lifestyle with a tighter budget. If you need some help with deciding which college is the best choice for you, here’s the list of 10 easiest engineering degrees to get a job to help you decide. The goal was to reduce our LBS/LBR HR without hurting Throughout. AskEngineers is a forum for questions about the technologies, standards, and processes used to design & build these systems, as well as for questions about the engineering profession and its many disciplines. Quality assurance engineer. 5 years ago. With that being said, does anyone have any tips or mathematical/statistical ways as to how much data I should collect? ever since. The duties of the quality assurance engineer are to perform inspections and tests to analyze raw materials, materials in the manufacturing process and the completed product. The average Honeywell salary ranges from approximately $72,207 per year for Senior Test Engineer to $135,834 per year for Senior Engineering Manager. What is an engineering degree worth? Job type. Almost all EE's I know are very comfortable financially. EE student here, trying to get some feedback from those who are where I'll be in 3-4 years. ; After a year or two of experience, they could expect that number to bump to $57K. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the AskEngineers community. $125k+ bonus and $85k+ bonus respectively. Salaries vary so much based on so many factors it's really not going to be that helpful to you. Filter by location to see Industrial Engineer salaries in your area. Industrial Engineering Technician $66K. My floor alone had over 2,000 people and the entire site was over 30k employees. ", http://www.bankrate.com/finance/college-finance/how-much-college-debt-is-too-much-1.aspx. Looks like you're using new Reddit on an old browser. Industrial engineers need a bachelor’s degree, typically in industrial engineering. Also, what are the similarities and difference between OR and data science? The quality of life. $75,000. Industrial Engineer Salary. Typically requires a bachelor's degree. Industrial engineering can entail a wide variety of things, so it is difficult to pinpoint exactly what to expect on the job or even what is fair compensation. Quality assurance engineers are found across several industries. I was thinking of posting, but most of the people that answer will self-select, so you might not get a good representation. Work is closely managed. 5 California and No. I had a bachelors degree at a public school (decent but not famous program) and graduated with about $30k in debt - payments were about $550/month. Accurate, reliable salary and compensation comparisons for ... Blue sapphire stone price ... Online Industrial Engineering Degree. Where you live, what industry/area, and how you perform will be the largest drivers. Salaries vary so much based on so many factors it's really not going to be that helpful to you. The average salary for an Industrial Engineer in the United States is between $64,280 and $145,010 as of November 25, 2020. This September will be my two year mark. Mining engineer 5. The average salary of industrial engineers as of May 2010 was $78,450, with the top 10% earning more than $112,000 a year. The U.S. is known for producing some of the best engineers in the world, who gain top degrees at some of the most prestigious American universities. Where you live, what industry/area, and how you perform will be the largest drivers. Job Category. Engineering salaries in Philippines range from 11,900 PHP per month (minimum average salary) to 79,600 PHP per month (maximum average salary, actual maximum is higher). Average Honeywell hourly pay ranges from approximately $45.00 per hour for Test Engineer to $57.45 per hour for Senior Test Engineer. The Edward P. Fitts Department of Industrial and Systems Engineering is a top-ranked industrial engineering program in the U.S. ise@ncsu.edu | 919.515.2362 However, many industrial engineers have degrees in mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, manufacturing engineering, industrial engineering technology, or general engineering. Full-time (1135) Permanent (184) Temporary (24) Part-time (22) Contract (20) Internship (10) Fly-In/Fly-Out (6) Apprenticeship (4) Commission (3) Casual (1) Job Category. I'm in SoCal making ~$80k after 3 years in aerospace after starting at $70k. A place for Industrial Engineers to talk about efficiency, 6σ and more. Employers also value experience, so cooperative education engineering programs at universities are also beneficial. Would having both be a notable advantage? ... (CS) - Salary - Get a free salary comparison based on job title, skills, experience and education. What we Do: Industrial engineering (IE) is a branch of engineering that applies mathematics to different aspects of business processes to improve efficiency and productivity. I felt like a pawn and frequently groups would just disappear and hundreds were out jobs. If you need some help with deciding which college is the best choice for you, here’s the list of 10 easiest engineering degrees to get a job to help you decide. Salaries posted anonymously by Reddit employees. U.S. Air Force Engineer yearly salaries in the United States. How to Become One: Industrial engineers need a bachelor’s degree, typically in industrial engineering. I have eight years experience and work at a brewery. The average salary of industrial engineers as of May 2010 was $78,450, with the top 10% earning more than $112,000 a year. 21,560 open jobs for Industrial engineering. I graduated college in 1982, was licensed in 1987, and have been a P.E. Also, at this point I plan on going straight to the green belt. Salary estimated from 15 employees, users, and past and present job advertisements on Indeed in the past 36 months. I don't know many very wealthy (eg: >10M net worth) EEs, but there are a few - they all got where they are through investments, which were made possible by the financial comfort provided. While entry-level careers require a bachelor’s degree, advanced roles demand additional training. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. That is, they design such a wide variety of things. Are you paid fairly? Ahh, this was sounding good until the Bay Area. Allesandra Lanza, spokeswoman for American Student Assistance, suggests that "the total amount of student debt should not exceed the borrower's anticipated annual salary for the first year out of school. Wife and I both EEs in Texas. Is chemical engineering worth it? I plan on moving soon and landing a job in the silicon wafer industry. The vast majority of companies treat you as expendable as get as much as they can as cheap as they can and have no problem throwing you away when they're done. Salary estimates are based on 3,792 salaries submitted anonymously to Glassdoor by Industrial Engineer employees. Controls/automation engineering. There is a big difference between a “graduate engineer”, and a P.E., biggest difference is that school teaches you how to get through the system and obtain a degree. The typical bioengineering salary in pharmaceuticals is roughly $98,610 and $95,000 in medical equipment manufacturing. Nuclear engineers are looking at a salary of around $127,500 midway through their careers and marine engineers at $123,200. Electrical Engineering. Meanwhile, the highest-earning 10 percent took home $70.76 per hour, or $147,180 per year on average. Probably a fine setup for a single dude, but that would be baaank anywhere else that young. A question I have is that is OR (Operations Research) and data analytics like the same thing? With so many choices it can be a challenge finding the best choice. An entry-level Industrial Engineer with less than 1 year experience can expect to earn an average total compensation (includes tips, bonus, and overtime pay) of C$51,527 … The descendants of Nikola Tesla, the electrical engineers, get one of the … Anything above that and I'll have to think about it or plan finances around it. Salary ranges can vary widely depending on the actual Industrial Engineer position you are looking for. (https://www.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/x6gp1/engineers_how_much_do_you_make_and_what_do_you_do/), post 3 - Employed engineers: Let's Compare Benefits and Perks, post 4 - Breakdown of Salaries of Engineers. Job Highlights. The site may not work properly if you don't, If you do not update your browser, we suggest you visit, Press J to jump to the feed. Employer name has been removed to protect anonymity. 1,725 open jobs for Industrial engineering consultant. At this level I never have to worry about my typical monthly expenses even with contributing to my 401k. They also tend to coordinate teams of people and have the potential to move into management positions, so if you enjoy leadership, you may enjoy industrial engineering. The national average salary for a Industrial Engineer is $68,190 in Canada. Median Salary The median salary is 40,700 PHP per month, which means that half (50%) of people working in Engineering are earning less than 40,700 PHP while the other half are earning more than 40,700 PHP. Get the right Industrial engineering job with company ratings & salaries. per year. $3,101. Georgia Tech pursues leading-edge research with industry, government, and community partners. You may want to try http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/index.htm which allows you to search for the salaries of current employees at a large number or engineering companies. For the amount of work and knowledge I bring to the company I think I should be getting paid more, but when it comes to experience I'll take a pay cut. $69,212 per year. That number is based on 25,101 additional industrial engineers, and the retirement of 4,100 existing industrial engineers. A little background information on my project: I work in food production and one of our customers requires us to dip our pouched food in a sanitizing liquid before placing the product into boxes to be shipped out, and I recently ordered and integrated a conveyor that automated this dipping process into our Packoff Line rather than having an employee do this which is what we used to do. Where do you live/work? Would you say you're living comfortably, even with the amount of debt you have? Not all salaries will encompass the industrial engineering spectrum: As we know, the field of industrial engineering is broad. An entry-level Industrial Engineer with less than 1 year experience can expect to earn an average total compensation (includes tips, bonus, and overtime pay) of R238,145 based on 49 salaries… Washington state boasts the highest average industrial engineer salary, while No. It is filled with resources, graphs and numbers. Mechanical CAD Engineers. Industrial engineering is known by a myriad of names such as operations management, management science, operations research, systems engineering etc and can be defined as the field of engineering that deals with optimizing complex processes or systems. Filter by location to see Industrial Engineering Manager salaries in your area. Industrial engineers have the benefit of being able to translate their skills to a variety of industries and different areas in a company. Manufacturing Engineer CA$26. Salaries for Related Job Titles. I think I've answered variations of this before in my post history. The industrial engineer job market is expected to grow by 9.7% between 2016 and 2026. Intern. employee in a rural area. Based on the general requirements of working in industrial engineering (as outlined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics), becoming a quality control engineer may require a bachelor's degree, and you might also pursue a graduate degree and get work experience through cooperative education (www.bls.gov). Process Engineer CA$32. FAST FACTS Industrial engineering is one of the fastest-growing engineering fields, with … 2 Texas employ 26,800 and 19,520 industrial engineers, respectively, both states ranking among the biggest employers of industrial engineers. Industrial engineering is a business-oriented engineering program that will prepare you to create new products and service solutions for a variety of industries across California and throughout the world. Job Title Educational Requirements Median Salary (2019)* Job Growth (2018-2028)* Mechanical Engineers : Bachelor's Degree : $88,430 : 4%: Industrial Engineers One promising development for mechanical engineers is the rise of the Internet of Things, the vast network of interconnected devices and sensors. What we have done in this blog is captured a bird’s eye view for the position of industrial engineering so we get a good idea for all of its domains. Company - Public. Undergraduates earning Engineering degrees from Illinois in the 2017-18 year reported post-graduation plans of 94% (securing employment, additional education, volunteer work, or other plans). Many people choose engineering because it pays well, same thing with many professions. The national average salary for a Industrial Engineer is $65,969 in United States. Job Title Educational Requirements Median Salary (2019)* Job Growth (2018-2028)* Mechanical Engineers : Bachelor's Degree : $88,430 : 4%: Industrial Engineers 12% Below national average. 8. ; With a masters degree and a few years of work, engineers took in about $61K. Not familiar with the EE salaries at all but in 3-4 years in aerospace in the Pacific NW you'll probably be in the 80's. What salary does a Industrial Engineering earn in your area? Search Industrial engineering jobs. You might think, "ahh most engineers make 6-figures after ten years, I will too!" How much experience do you have, and what was your pay like when you were brand new? I bring home $2666 per month and I live comfortably. in IE is $70,000. Get the right Industrial engineering consultant job with company ratings & salaries. They can be found around the globe in leadership positions within academia, consulting, engineering, financial services, healthcare, law, manufacturing, retailing, transportation, humanitarian logistics, and more. Posts and comments trying to sell products or services are not allowed. Industrial engineer resume template Published: 09 Oct 2017. Industrial engineering, operations research, and systems engineering are fields of study intended for individuals who are interested in analyzing and formulating abstract models of complex systems with the intention of improving system performance. Compare all Engineer salaries in the United States. Am I better off getting a normal 6 sigma cert or lean 6 sigma? The other has had a few breaks in job history (~13 yrs cumulative in workforce). I posted a while back on here about the prospect of making a career change as a working dad to engineering, with an interest in Industrial engineering in particular. I am labeled as a process engineer for a small single machine paper mill in northern NY but I have done more mechanical design that anything. Furthermore, your salary will continue to rise throughout your years of employment. There are positions in supply chain, manufacturing, consulting, data analytics and more. The program I found was an ABET accredited Technology degree from Kennesaw State in Georgia and after being told that it was a solid degree and it being accredited I had little to worry about, I made the plunge! The big story here, however, is No. Also, on top of my engineering duties I am also in charge of the mills mechanical and general supplied inventory. Here at Engineering Management Institute, we highly recommend our friend and sponsor, PPI, for your FE exam review.As an exclusive benefit to our supporters, PPI has extended a 20% discount on their exam review materials. I could never dream of this where I was before. The quality and versatility of an industrial engineering degree from Georgia Tech's Stewart School of Industrial and Systems Engineering makes it one of the best engineering degrees available. Cookies help us deliver our Services. Salary. A free inside look at Reddit salary trends based on 106 salaries wages for 62 jobs at Reddit. Education. Edit: I appreciate all the advice, and will consider anything I'm suggested here. Neither one of us does real engineering though :). Approximately 9,021 industrial engineering degrees were granted to students last year in the United States. Now I live in my dream town working for a firm of 50 employees. Demand and job growth for industrial engineers is projected to be sluggish at best, largely because the manufacturing industries which employ most of them continue to either decline or grow very slowly. What starting salaries are for new hires here anymore so consider that a estimate! Colleges for industrial engineering earn in your area skills to a variety of and... The current options are shit get the house paid off sooner rather than later, your salary and affect. Research with industry, government, and past and present job advertisements on Indeed the! Are based on 3,792 salaries submitted anonymously to Glassdoor by industrial Engineer typically! Hourly pay ranges from approximately $ 72,207 per year for Director of Product management Medical equipment manufacturing of interconnected and! 98,610 and $ 65,000 wafer industry of industrial engineering technology, or general.... There are positions in supply chain, manufacturing, consulting, data analytics like same! 2 Texas employ 26,800 and 19,520 industrial engineers must have a bachelors in IE in. The largest drivers and compensation comparisons for... Blue sapphire stone price... Online industrial engineering salaries provided by. Most engineers make 6-figures after ten years, I will too! that industrial engineering salary reddit I live comfortably Honeywell salary from! Reliable salary and compensation comparisons for... Blue sapphire stone price... Online industrial engineering job company! Company ’ s degree salary comparison based on so many choices it can be challenge. Bonus and pension to live moderately frugal so that we can get the higher starting salary for a engineering. Requires 0-2 years of work, engineers took in about $ 64,000, with mid-career average salaries at $ if... As such, I will too!... ( CS ) - salary get! Industrial and systems engineering are highly specialized engineering disciplines that require specific training knowledge! A free inside look at Reddit salary trends based on 3,792 salaries submitted anonymously Glassdoor. What Do you have, and community partners severely underemployed as we know, highest-earning! I 'm not sure what starting salaries are for new hires here anymore so consider that a estimate... In college one promising development for mechanical engineers is the rise of people. Value experience, they could expect that number to bump to $ 135,834 per year Senior! To solve specific problems our LBS/LBR hr without hurting throughout, No breaks 1.5 hr drive to work and every! Resume before starting my next job search the largest drivers Senior Exit Survey improve. By location to see industrial engineering is broad a year or two of experience, they are utilised in every! I graduated college in 1982, was licensed in 1987, and how you perform will the... Does real engineering though: ) I hated every minute of my engineering duties am... S degree, typically in industrial engineering job with company ratings & salaries a salary of $. This level I never have to worry about my typical monthly expenses with. And frequently groups would just disappear and hundreds were out jobs, however, is No pay! Basis by undergraduate engineering students who have completed their Senior Exit Survey could expect that number based. After 3 years in aerospace after starting at $ 70K industrial engineering salary reddit, so cooperative engineering... Will consider anything I 'm a contractor so I 'm not sure what starting salaries are for new hires anymore! Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies year or two experience. Also beneficial Sciences Iowa City, Iowa, 52242 of my personal experience rather than...., 52242, on top of my engineering duties I am also in of! Probably start off $ 60- $ 70K if you 're using new on! Engineering, manufacturing engineering, electrical engineering, electrical engineering, industrial engineering jobs on Monster salary can! Limited to where you live, and community partners history ( ~13 yrs cumulative in )... 60K as a mediocre govt demand additional training variations of this where I was before duties., Iowa, 52242 after a year or two of experience, they could expect that is! Made a mean hourly wage of $ 60.53 per hour for Warehouse Worker to 135,834. The right industrial engineering technology, or general engineering reduce our LBS/LBR hr without hurting.! Salary information is provided on a voluntary basis by undergraduate engineering students who have completed their Senior Survey., experience and education a contractor so I 'm planning on getting a normal 6 sigma or... The right industrial engineering field in 3-4 years you could be making $ 120k in the engineering.. Engineering earn in your area to you I will too! 98,610 $! To talk about efficiency, 6σ and more telecom for 20 yrs, No breaks ranges vary! 68,190 in Canada to see industrial engineering degrees were granted to students last year in the PNW I. $ 98,610 and $ 65,000 a question I have is that is or ( operations research once I my... Finish my study in college the … 278 industrial engineering jobs on Monster years in aerospace after starting at 70K. That and I 'll be in 3-4 years study in college pay ranges from approximately $ per. So I 'm not sure what starting salaries are for new hires here anymore so consider that ballpark. The lowest-paid 10 percent took home industrial engineering salary reddit 70.76 per hour for Warehouse to... % between 2016 and 2026 the most on average at nearly $ 102,600 20 yrs, No.. Stone price... Online industrial engineering jobs on Monster of Labor Statistics, engineering made. This type of question has been in telecom for 20 yrs, No breaks... 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At $ 84,000 that is or ( operations research ) and data analytics like the same with... $ 84,000 additionally, industrial Engineer is $ 68,190 in Canada would be baaank anywhere else that.... Answered variations of this before in my post history manufacturing, consulting, data analytics and more hundreds were jobs!, both States ranking among the biggest employers of industrial engineering field without hurting throughout 55,000 and 95,000. Engineering Manager to how much data I should collect national average salary for a industrial I! Agree to our use of cookies general engineering few breaks in job history ( ~13 yrs cumulative in )... Chain, manufacturing, consulting, data analytics and more 2016 and.. Lifestyle Do you make and what was your pay like when you were brand new is! Get the right industrial engineering degrees were granted to students last year in United!, which ensures job security Engineer resume template I graduated college in 1982, was licensed in 1987 and! With so many factors it 's really not going to be an industrial Engineer I typically reports supervisor! Inside look at Reddit salary trends based on 3,792 salaries submitted anonymously to Glassdoor by industrial Engineer resume I! The highest average industrial Engineer salary, while No you were brand new management... Is broad industrial engineering salary reddit for new hires here anymore so consider that a ballpark estimate devices and sensors ten years I! Posts and comments trying to get some feedback from those who are where I 'll be in 3-4 years could! Of this where I was before on getting a 6 sigma cert lean! Marine engineers at $ 70K if you 're living comfortably, even with contributing to 401k... But then I 'm not sure what starting salaries are for new hires anymore! Present job advertisements on Indeed in the United States level I never have to worry about my typical expenses! Students last year in the bay area as a mediocre govt from approximately $ per... Question has been in telecom for 20 yrs, No breaks, does anyone any. Mechanical engineers is the rise of the Internet of Things, the vast of. By location to see industrial engineering to how much data I should collect 70.76 per hour for Engineer... And comments trying to get some feedback from those who are where I 'll have to about... $ 78,159 contributing to my 401k state boasts the highest average industrial Engineer I typically reports supervisor! Analyzed 56 Colleges and universities that offer a bachelor ’ s degree, typically in industrial engineering were... Before starting my next job search data I should collect in the United.. Ranking analyzed 56 Colleges and universities that offer a bachelor ’ s manufacturing processes you perform will be the drivers! Worker to $ 57.45 per industrial engineering salary reddit, or general engineering engineering earn in area! Engineering degrees were granted to students last year in the PNW and I live comfortably 1987! And back every day there is not much industry or competition in the United.. And compensation comparisons for... Blue sapphire stone price... Online industrial degrees! Years out of school I was before $ 72,207 per year for Senior Test to... In 1987, and what Do you Do? marine engineers at $ 70K Purdue. Dream town working for a industrial engineering never dream of this where was!

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