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Author Topic: The Wire....Best show on TV?  (Read 6894 times)

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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2008, 10:22:34 AM »
hmmm I hear what you say.....and I'm sure you know what you're talking about and where you intend to go with your view.....but it still doesn't make perfect sense to me....and no disrespect but the scholarly theses for eg the trainwreck effect are just interpretations and opinions, based on some understanding of human behavior, that one can choose to subscribe to at their own will. If it ain't proven science (correct me if it is), then it's just an opinion....an educated opinion sure enough (more educated than mine  ;D), and while I'm sure it has its merits, it ain't necessarily the whole gospel to me, and I'm not sure if it pertains to all audiences....... That said, I'm also not sure how one determines & proves whether the root of a defined appeal  is character association, or a mere fascination with the train wreck syndrome for eg, how one would separate the two factors, and how one determines how one factor could perhaps influence the other.... without a very strict and very narrow definition of the term "connection" with a character- which is why I thought you were attempting to narrowly define connection so as to delineate the two "factors"-(which mind you are just two of a potential many factors each with their own varying influences).... At the risk of turning this discussion into one of linear regression  ;D, I'll stop here because I gather you know where I'm headed- hence my original position that dismissing the "connection" with character factor as nonsense is probably overly dismissive.

Forget Sopranos vs The Wire for a second, and imagine if there was a Japanese version of "Goodfellas" - same character roles, same plot, same story (based on a true story as well), same era, same trainwreck syndrome at play.....but based around the Japanese mob.... do you think it could have been marketed in the U.S, to the same audience and with the same success as Goodfellas?  My opinion is that how people relate to a character (that connection), can't be fully defined, quantified, or rationalized, and it's effects on the overall appeal to a theatrical piece is difficult to measure, and even more difficult to dismiss when assessing two potentially divergent target audiences as in the case of the Sopranos & the Wire.... I did some film & theatre study in college as well, but I don't know if it has anything to do with my view.
I was dismissive of the "connection" element as used in the article...I read it to imply a connection along racial lines.  Separately, when I mentioned the 'train wreck effect' I wasn't speaking of some paradigm taught in the classroom that I recognized, what I meant was that when I read that the audience had that sort of morbid fascination with the series, I totall understood, because I could see where one would be curious and interested enough to follow the series w/o really connecting...a detached interest if you will.  In short I understood the morbid fascination (train wreck effect described in the newspaper article I read) to be a detached interest similar to how I would watch many movies.

All that said, to answer the hypothetical...I don't think the movie would have the same appeal being that American audiences are notoriously difficult when it comes to foreign film.  Earlier we were speaking of viewers connecting with characters on a personal basis, bringing a foreign film into the discussion creates unique challenges in that viewers won't have any cultural connection to the hypothetical japanese yakuza series.  Even though (if my view is to be believed) that viewers aren't necessarily identifying with the characters on the screen, New Jersey is still a very real place to them, the Italian mob is still very much a part of recent American history (and reality), so there is a connection to the series in that sense, even if no personal connection to the characters.  I don't think an American audience would connect to a foreign film in quite the same way.

Offline kicker

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2008, 10:49:24 AM »
I was dismissive of the "connection" element as used in the article...I read it to imply a connection along racial lines.  Separately, when I mentioned the 'train wreck effect' I wasn't speaking of some paradigm taught in the classroom that I recognized, what I meant was that when I read that the audience had that sort of morbid fascination with the series, I totall understood, because I could see where one would be curious and interested enough to follow the series w/o really connecting...a detached interest if you will.  In short I understood the morbid fascination (train wreck effect described in the newspaper article I read) to be a detached interest similar to how I would watch many movies.

All that said, to answer the hypothetical...I don't think the movie would have the same appeal being that American audiences are notoriously difficult when it comes to foreign film.  Earlier we were speaking of viewers connecting with characters on a personal basis, bringing a foreign film into the discussion creates unique challenges in that viewers won't have any cultural connection to the hypothetical japanese yakuza series.  Even though (if my view is to be believed) that viewers aren't necessarily identifying with the characters on the screen, New Jersey is still a very real place to them, the Italian mob is still very much a part of recent American history (and reality), so there is a connection to the series in that sense, even if no personal connection to the characters.  I don't think an American audience would connect to a foreign film in quite the same way.

Cool- we'll have to disagree on some of these. I too saw the connection in the article as described along racial lines, but not one that existed purely because of the difference in skin colour. There are other generalized differences between black & white audiences in the U.S. (other than skin colour) that i thought the article addressed, with skin colour just being the first variable in a top- down approach so to speak.

With respect to the hypothetical scenario, in addition to what you said, which I agree with, I think there could be differences in the characters' (or individual character's) sense of humor, communication style, sense of fashion, interaction/interplay with co-workers, with loved ones, with enemies, way of expressing emotion etc....some subtle, some not so subtle, that the American viewer may relate to moreso than if watching a Japanese character playing the same role in a film with identical subject matter....all potentially stemming from cultural differences but ultimately would result in a stronger personal connection with the individual character himself/herself, and hence have an effect on the overall appeal of the theatrical piece, and the degree of entertainment derived from it...surprised that you wouldn't see it that way....but oh well......
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 10:55:21 AM by kicker »
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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2008, 11:00:23 AM »
I was dismissive of the "connection" element as used in the article...I read it to imply a connection along racial lines.  Separately, when I mentioned the 'train wreck effect' I wasn't speaking of some paradigm taught in the classroom that I recognized, what I meant was that when I read that the audience had that sort of morbid fascination with the series, I totall understood, because I could see where one would be curious and interested enough to follow the series w/o really connecting...a detached interest if you will.  In short I understood the morbid fascination (train wreck effect described in the newspaper article I read) to be a detached interest similar to how I would watch many movies.

All that said, to answer the hypothetical...I don't think the movie would have the same appeal being that American audiences are notoriously difficult when it comes to foreign film.  Earlier we were speaking of viewers connecting with characters on a personal basis, bringing a foreign film into the discussion creates unique challenges in that viewers won't have any cultural connection to the hypothetical japanese yakuza series.  Even though (if my view is to be believed) that viewers aren't necessarily identifying with the characters on the screen, New Jersey is still a very real place to them, the Italian mob is still very much a part of recent American history (and reality), so there is a connection to the series in that sense, even if no personal connection to the characters.  I don't think an American audience would connect to a foreign film in quite the same way.

Cool- we'll have to disagree on some of these. I too saw the connection in the article as described along racial lines, but not one that existed purely because of the difference in skin colour. There are other generalized differences between black & white audiences in the U.S. (other than skin colour) that i thought the article addressed, with skin colour just being the first variable in a top- down approach so to speak.

With respect to the hypothetical scenario I think there could be differences in the charaters' (or individual charater's) sense of humor, communication style, sense of fashion, interaction/interplay with co-workers, with loved ones, with enemies, way of expressing emotion etc....some subtle, some not so subtle, that the American viewer may relate to moreso than if watching a Japanese character playing the same role in a film with identical subject matter....all potentially stemming from cultural differences but ultimately would result in a stronger personal connection with the individual character himself/herself, and hence have an effect on the overall appeal of the theatrical piece, and the degree of entertainment derived from it...surprised that you wouldn't see it that way....but oh well......

We'd have to disagree on the first paragraph.

As for the second, I dunno...I guess I see that as elemental to anything on film.  We are looking at other humans on the screen (and I'm not being facetious here) and so we relate to how that human interacts with others in the social dynamic.  What I mean is, if someone says something funny we laugh.  If Tony Soprano (for example) said something funny I'll laugh because what Tony said was funny...not because it's Tony.  I think I understand you though and I think I understand where our viewpoint diverges.  If I get you right you would say that audiences connect with 'Tony' because of the traits of that fictional character...he's ruthless, he's funny, he's a man-whore, he's a family man...

Whereas I don't see it as a personal connection (as in "I can relate to Tony"), and would more say I'm fascinated by what Tony will do next etc. So I tune in for that reason...the very reason you would characterize as a 'connection'?

Offline kicker

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2008, 11:38:38 AM »
I was dismissive of the "connection" element as used in the article...I read it to imply a connection along racial lines.  Separately, when I mentioned the 'train wreck effect' I wasn't speaking of some paradigm taught in the classroom that I recognized, what I meant was that when I read that the audience had that sort of morbid fascination with the series, I totall understood, because I could see where one would be curious and interested enough to follow the series w/o really connecting...a detached interest if you will.  In short I understood the morbid fascination (train wreck effect described in the newspaper article I read) to be a detached interest similar to how I would watch many movies.

All that said, to answer the hypothetical...I don't think the movie would have the same appeal being that American audiences are notoriously difficult when it comes to foreign film.  Earlier we were speaking of viewers connecting with characters on a personal basis, bringing a foreign film into the discussion creates unique challenges in that viewers won't have any cultural connection to the hypothetical japanese yakuza series.  Even though (if my view is to be believed) that viewers aren't necessarily identifying with the characters on the screen, New Jersey is still a very real place to them, the Italian mob is still very much a part of recent American history (and reality), so there is a connection to the series in that sense, even if no personal connection to the characters.  I don't think an American audience would connect to a foreign film in quite the same way.

Cool- we'll have to disagree on some of these. I too saw the connection in the article as described along racial lines, but not one that existed purely because of the difference in skin colour. There are other generalized differences between black & white audiences in the U.S. (other than skin colour) that i thought the article addressed, with skin colour just being the first variable in a top- down approach so to speak.

With respect to the hypothetical scenario I think there could be differences in the charaters' (or individual charater's) sense of humor, communication style, sense of fashion, interaction/interplay with co-workers, with loved ones, with enemies, way of expressing emotion etc....some subtle, some not so subtle, that the American viewer may relate to moreso than if watching a Japanese character playing the same role in a film with identical subject matter....all potentially stemming from cultural differences but ultimately would result in a stronger personal connection with the individual character himself/herself, and hence have an effect on the overall appeal of the theatrical piece, and the degree of entertainment derived from it...surprised that you wouldn't see it that way....but oh well......

We'd have to disagree on the first paragraph.

As for the second, I dunno...I guess I see that as elemental to anything on film.  We are looking at other humans on the screen (and I'm not being facetious here) and so we relate to how that human interacts with others in the social dynamic.  What I mean is, if someone says something funny we laugh.  If Tony Soprano (for example) said something funny I'll laugh because what Tony said was funny...not because it's Tony.  I think I understand you though and I think I understand where our viewpoint diverges.  If I get you right you would say that audiences connect with 'Tony' because of the traits of that fictional character...he's ruthless, he's funny, he's a man-whore, he's a family man...

Whereas I don't see it as a personal connection (as in "I can relate to Tony"), and would more say I'm fascinated by what Tony will do next etc. So I tune in for that reason...the very reason you would characterize as a 'connection'?

Moreso than his mere character traits by themselves, I would say that American viewers (possibly white, possibly Italian, possibly all) are more likely to connect with his personal character traits- humor, communication etc..than those character traits of a Japanese Tony Soprano....cultural associations that ultimately lead to somewhat varying personal connections with the characters.....
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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2008, 12:45:56 PM »
Moreso than his mere character traits by themselves, I would say that American viewers (possibly white, possibly Italian, possibly all) are more likely to connect with his personal character traits- humor, communication etc..than those character traits of a Japanese Tony Soprano....cultural associations that ultimately lead to somewhat varying personal connections with the characters.....

Okay I hear you. 

I still say yuh talking ah pack ah ass...but at least ah understand what side ah de ass yuh coming from now  ;D


 :beermug:

Offline kicker

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2008, 12:55:17 PM »
Moreso than his mere character traits by themselves, I would say that American viewers (possibly white, possibly Italian, possibly all) are more likely to connect with his personal character traits- humor, communication etc..than those character traits of a Japanese Tony Soprano....cultural associations that ultimately lead to somewhat varying personal connections with the characters.....

Okay I hear you. 

I still say yuh talking ah pack ah ass...but at least ah understand what side ah de ass yuh coming from now  ;D


 :beermug:

LOL

I eh mind coming from a side....as long as I eh coming from the inside [cough] like the opposing view [cough] expressed in this debate [cough]... ;D

cheers...  :beermug:
Live life 90 minutes at a time....Football is life.......

Offline Bakes

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2008, 01:53:08 PM »

LOL

I eh mind coming from a side....as long as I eh coming from the inside [cough] like the opposing view [cough] expressed in this debate [cough]... ;D

cheers...  :beermug:
:rotfl: :rotfl:

good good  :beermug:

Offline ribbit

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2009, 01:40:47 PM »
spent some time watching clips of the wire on youtube - some top drawer writing, acting and insight on society. yeah, some ace characters too. and style-wise - i mean, how hard yuh have to be to whistle "a farmer in the dell" and have kids scatter.

 

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