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Author Topic: The Wire....Best show on TV?  (Read 6893 times)

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Offline palos

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The Wire....Best show on TV?
« on: March 04, 2008, 07:31:24 PM »
For me it is.....by far.

Kinda sad Snoop dead tho.  She went real sorf.  Woulda expeck she to go dong in a blaze a glory.  Instead....dey had she goin out like a real gyul..."How meh hair lookin Michael?"
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

Offline Dutty

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2008, 05:31:20 PM »
I muss de onliest person on de planet dat neva see ah episode of dat show
Same wit de sopranos
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Offline WestCoast

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2008, 05:40:27 PM »
I muss de onliest person on de planet dat neva see ah episode of dat show
Same wit de sopranos
Dutty you does have de same cable supplier as me or wha  :D
never heard of The Wire


I know some young fellas does experiment by "pullin day wire" :devil:
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Offline Dutty

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2008, 05:45:01 PM »

I know some young fellas does experiment by "pullin day wire" :devil:

dais some kinda new electronic porn station allyuh watchin out on de island or wha?

Nah I see de show ah few times...but I maybe watch for 5 minutes and continue flippin de channel...most of the folks I know does tell how riveting the wire is

I dunno I just cyah get into soap operas,even one wit gangster ting......wel dais not true I does watch Lost
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Offline Themanfriday

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2008, 07:23:51 PM »
The Gov't office I work for was featured in the episode 59 "late Editions" One of the Soldiers we helped even got an acting part through our agency.  Look out for the AW2 Program. 
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Offline Blue

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2008, 12:18:31 AM »
I muss de onliest person on de planet dat neva see ah episode of dat show
Same wit de sopranos

if u ever watch an episode, make sure iz d sopranos yuh watch and not dis ting

Offline socachatter

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2008, 05:13:10 AM »
I muss de onliest person on de planet dat neva see ah episode of dat show
Same wit de sopranos

me me!! ah waving meh hand.  i never see the wire.  i couldn't afford to get addicted to another one of those movie channel series nuh.  and i never see Lost either.  i missing my movie networks bad dread.   :'( :'(
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 05:16:17 AM by socachatter »
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Offline Jumbie

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2008, 12:15:19 PM »
Not 1 episode yet. Maybe I'll just rent the ting and take a peep. Same with 24, never sit dong in front that one yet.


Offline kicker

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2008, 12:17:28 PM »
For me it is.....by far.

Kinda sad Snoop dead tho.  She went real sorf.  Woulda expeck she to go dong in a blaze a glory.  Instead....dey had she goin out like a real gyul..."How meh hair lookin Michael?"

I tried to get into it too late....understand the story for the most part, but not really that connected to the characters etc...so I don't enjoy it as much as regular followers....It's seems like the new sopranos in the sense that it's the current must see Sunday show for a seemingly very large number of people.....
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Offline noname

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2008, 05:37:45 PM »
For me it is.....by far.

Kinda sad Snoop dead tho.  She went real sorf.  Woulda expeck she to go dong in a blaze a glory.  Instead....dey had she goin out like a real gyul..."How meh hair lookin Michael?"
Palos,
In case you want to see the finale early.
http://www.surfthechannel.com/info/television/The_Wire/61938/S5E10.html




Offline palos

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2008, 05:47:46 PM »
For me it is.....by far.

Kinda sad Snoop dead tho.  She went real sorf.  Woulda expeck she to go dong in a blaze a glory.  Instead....dey had she goin out like a real gyul..."How meh hair lookin Michael?"
Palos,
In case you want to see the finale early.
http://www.surfthechannel.com/info/television/The_Wire/61938/S5E10.html

Thanks very much.  Watched it on saturday thanks to you.  Great finale!  Thanks again!
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

Offline Touches

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2008, 11:26:29 AM »
I ent see this last season because FLOW have a new HBO.

Its a Latin feed so we do not get all those shows anymore.

Wire good but I find Sopranos was better. Also with Wire it moves slow some weeks and yuh need a lil history to understand wha going on.

I  didnt mind OZ and Rome but I couldnt handle the bullerman themes on a regular so.

But of late I watching Lost and prison break on dvd...I find them ting good.

But the best ever TV show....Curb your enthusiasm with Larry David. Cyar beat he for assness. That is a must see.


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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2008, 12:26:10 PM »
I muss de onliest person on de planet dat neva see ah episode of dat show
Same wit de sopranos

You miss out on some quality TV sah.  I eh see de last season of Sopranos and is years now I ent watch de Wire because I ent paying fuh no premium channel, barely have time tuh watch regular satellite TV as is.  Ah get up to date on Sopranos from renting de DVD's and likely will do the same with The Wire in due time.

I tried to get into it too late....understand the story for the most part, but not really that connected to the characters etc...so I don't enjoy it as much as regular followers....It's seems like the new sopranos in the sense that it's the current must see Sunday show for a seemingly very large number of people.....

"new" kinda misleading...in that The Wire been around since 2000...when it was around for a season or two before going on hiatus.  Many don't know but it was originally proposed and produced by Charles S. Dutton of "Roc" fame....this is what got it my attention at first.

Offline Blue

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2008, 04:31:48 PM »
I muss de onliest person on de planet dat neva see ah episode of dat show
Same wit de sopranos

You miss out on some quality TV sah.  I eh see de last season of Sopranos and is years now I ent watch de Wire because I ent paying fuh no premium channel, barely have time tuh watch regular satellite TV as is.  Ah get up to date on Sopranos from renting de DVD's and likely will do the same with The Wire in due time.

Yuh lapsing, go and rent it....the final nine episodes were fantastic, each one was a masterpiece.

Offline Bakes

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2008, 05:56:47 PM »
I muss de onliest person on de planet dat neva see ah episode of dat show
Same wit de sopranos

You miss out on some quality TV sah.  I eh see de last season of Sopranos and is years now I ent watch de Wire because I ent paying fuh no premium channel, barely have time tuh watch regular satellite TV as is.  Ah get up to date on Sopranos from renting de DVD's and likely will do the same with The Wire in due time.

Yuh lapsing, go and rent it....the final nine episodes were fantastic, each one was a masterpiece.
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Offline kicker

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2008, 09:00:06 AM »
I tried to get into it too late....understand the story for the most part, but not really that connected to the characters etc...so I don't enjoy it as much as regular followers....It's seems like the new sopranos in the sense that it's the current must see Sunday show for a seemingly very large number of people.....

"new" kinda misleading...in that The Wire been around since 2000...when it was around for a season or two before going on hiatus.  Many don't know but it was originally proposed and produced by Charles S. Dutton of "Roc" fame....this is what got it my attention at first.

Good talk.... it's been around for sometime- actually in its last season now.... when I say the "new" Sopranos, I meant that it's kinda only recently taken the mantle(to me at least...maybe I wasn't paying attention) of the biggest "must see" Sunday night cable TV drama....Always thought that in years past, the Sopranos sorta put others in the shade.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2008, 12:25:23 PM »
Good talk.... it's been around for sometime- actually in its last season now.... when I say the "new" Sopranos, I meant that it's kinda only recently taken the mantle(to me at least...maybe I wasn't paying attention) of the biggest "must see" Sunday night cable TV drama....Always thought that in years past, the Sopranos sorta put others in the shade.


Nah yuh right in that regard...Sopranos had more star power and notoriety so The Wire was more of a sleeper while the Sopranos aired.  With the Sopranos done now, The Wire has been promoted into that 'flagship' series status...and marketed accordingly by HBO. 

Offline palos

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2008, 09:16:23 PM »
I love the Sopranos.  But The Wire for me is by far superior television.

The reason why The Wire hasn't moved from an underground cult show to a mainstream hit is primarily because it's about an uncomfortable topic (the failure of one of America's major cities) and by and large the main cast of characters are black who white audiences have little or no connection with.

Whereas they can stand around the Monday morning water cooler talking about who Tony "whacked" the night before, they have no clue WTF Snoop said to Chris as she fulfilled her stated aim of "he got to get got"


One review written just before Seaon 4:


The Wire, which has just begun its fourth season on HBO, is surely the best TV show ever broadcast in America. This claim isn't based on my having seen all the possible rivals for the title, but on the premise that no other program has ever done anything remotely like what this one does, namely to portray the social, political, and economic life of an American city with the scope, observational precision, and moral vision of great literature.

During its first year, it was possible to mistake The Wire for merely an unusually shrewd and vivid police drama. But the program has gotten richer and more ambitious with each season and now fits only into a category it defines by itself: the urban procedural. Its protagonist is the broken American city of Baltimore, depicted with obsessive verisimilitude and affectionate rage. Its fundamental concern is the isolation and degradation of the black underclass, a subject that has, with the exception of a blip after Hurricane Katrina, disappeared from the political radar screen. If the national conscience is ready for another sleepless night about the waste of lives in the ghetto, I expect that The Wire will be what keeps us awake.

It's a mark of the program's artistic courage that while drug dealing, murder, and detective work remain its bread and butter, it dares to focus Season 4 on an urban environment not ordinarily associated with prime time: an all-black middle school in West Baltimore. The show's creator, producer, and chief writer, David Simon, has had the self-assuredness to drop the Hollywood convention of the white hero. This season, Officer McNulty, the charming rascal cop played by Dominic West, is sent to the sidelines, relegated to patrol work by his repeated defiance of mindless bureaucracy. In McNulty's place at the center of the drama are the compelling characters of four adolescent African-American boys, played by little-known actors so preternaturally talented they don't seem to be acting at all.

Watching the show this season feels less like observing these four children navigate their cruel world than it does like adopting them in hour-long sessions. The story begins with the boys entering eighth grade. At 12 and 13, these kids still have a chance to escape the streets. The central drama is whether "the game" of drug dealing will exert its gravitational pull on them or whether they will somehow beat the odds pointing them toward jail and violent death. The vain, troublemaking Namond, played by Julito McCullum, has a mother who wants him to follow in the footsteps of his drug-dealing father, imprisoned for multiple murders. The sweet, enterprising Randy, played by Maestro Harrell, lives with a caring foster mother who cannot protect him from the cruelties of the drug dealers or the child welfare system. Tough, mature Michael, played by Tristan Wilds, enmeshes himself with killers in order to protect his younger brother from his addicted mother's abusive boyfriend. The most affecting of all, Dukie, played by Jermaine Crawford, comes to school hungry and dirty and lives in a home so broken we are mostly left to imagine what goes on inside. Having previewed all 13 episodes, I won't give away what happens to them, except to say that as usual, the program reverses your expectations while breaking your heart.

Several critics have commented on The Wire's "literary" quality. In particular, The Wire has echoes of the Victorian social panorama of Charles Dickens (who gets a mention this season, as an obscene anatomical reference). The drama repeatedly cuts from the top of Baltimore's social structure to its bottom, from political fund-raisers in the white suburbs to the subterranean squat of a homeless junkie. As with Dickens, the excitement builds as the densely woven plot unfolds in addicting installments. The deeper connection to Dickens' London is the program's animating fury at the way a society robs children of their childhood. In our civilized age, we do not send 12-year-olds to work in blacking factories as the Victorians did. Today's David Copperfield is instead warehoused at a dysfunctional school until he's ready to sling drugs on the corner, where his odds of survival are even slimmer.

The other major theme this season is politics. A white candidate for mayor (Tommy Carcetti, played by Aiden Gillen) cynically tries to win the election by encouraging an African-American colleague on the City Council to run and split the black vote. But the ambitious Carcetti is also an idealist frustrated by the waste of lives all around him. This plot line, along with another about the venal police brass trying to manipulate crime statistics, captures the realities of government and the compound motives of politicians in a telling and subtle way. This year, The Wire's political science is as brilliant as its sociology. It leaves The West Wing, and everything else television has tried to do on this subject, in the dust.

Before this season, The Wire won much love from critics but not much in the way of ratings. That may be less because the program leaves viewers drained and disturbed at the end of an episode than because of how hard it is to catch on to at first, thanks to the complexity of its multiple storylines and the number of characters. There is also the challenge of following the localized black dialect that the program tries to represent as faithfully as it does its other details. In the Baltimore ghetto, yo is both a salutation and the third-person singular pronoun; "feel me," means "listen to what I'm telling you"; and the ubiquitous use of bitch has mostly replaced the N-word. The cops have their own language as well, in which a capable officer is "good police," bystanders caught in the crossfire are "taxpayers," and young boys up to no good are called "hoppers." The dialogue becomes easy enough to follow after a couple of episodes, but first-time viewers should switch on the closed-captioning feature for the first hour or two so as not to miss anything.

While The Wire feels startlingly lifelike, it is not in fact a naturalistic depiction of ghetto life. That kind of realism better describes an earlier miniseries of Simon's, The Corner, which was based on the book of the same title that he and Ed Burns wrote, set in the same Baltimore ghetto. The six-part HBO version of The Corner is nearly unwatchable, because—however true to life—the extended depiction of shrieking crack whores and broken-down junkies 10 cents short of the price of a "loosie" is too much to take. But for Simon, The Corner seems to have been a crucial life study for The Wire, a program that attains the dimensions of tragedy without being depressing.

The Wire does this by painting with brighter colors on a wider canvas and by leavening its pain with humor. The brilliant writing and bravura cast also make viewers root for dozens of rich characters, including several completely despicable ones. Everyone's favorite survivors from earlier seasons are two truly Shakespearean figures who get a lot of play this year: the vagabond snitch Bubbles played by Andre Royo, and Omar, the gay stickup artist played by Michael K. Williams, a cold-blooded killer whose personal code involves not serving any masters other than himself and never cursing.

What ultimately makes The Wire uplifting amid the heartbreak it conveys is its embodiment of a spirit that Barack Obama calls "the audacity of hope." It is filled with characters who should quit but don't, not only the boys themselves but teachers, cops, ex-cops, and ex-cons who lose their hearts to them. This refusal to give up in the face of defeat is the reality of ghetto life as well. Feel me: It's what The Wire is all about.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 09:37:11 PM by palos »
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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2008, 10:56:21 PM »
I not buying de opening paragraph.  America has always been fascinated with mobsters...typical trainwreck syndrome.  Crack dealers by comparison come dime a dozen.  The demographic the two shows appeal to are radically divergent and unfortunately the money is with the Soprano crowd...and HBO has been commiserate in promoting the show accordingly.  All this aside from the plaudits from critics and the ACE voters.

To trying and play the race card on this one is simply silly.

Offline kicker

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2008, 06:34:41 PM »
I not buying de opening paragraph.  America has always been fascinated with mobsters...typical trainwreck syndrome.  Crack dealers by comparison come dime a dozen.  The demographic the two shows appeal to are radically divergent and unfortunately the money is with the Soprano crowd...and HBO has been commiserate in promoting the show accordingly.  All this aside from the plaudits from critics and the ACE voters.

To trying and play the race card on this one is simply silly.

I don't interpret the first paragraph as playing the race card. I think it's saying pretty much what you're saying.

The demographic the two shows appeal to are radically divergent and unfortunately the money is with the Soprano crowd...and HBO has been commiserate in promoting the show accordingly.

The reason why The Wire hasn't moved from an underground cult show to a mainstream hit is primarily because it's about an uncomfortable topic (the failure of one of America's major cities) and by and large the main cast of characters are black who white audiences have little or no connection with.

-the shows appeal to different audiences. One is more mainstream, and lucrative than the other....I don't see an implication of "racism" per se against the Wire- but merely an implication of a varying sense of association across the "divergent viewing demographics"- as you call them....If anything it's just implying that the white audience is by and large the mainstream audience (Ain't that outrageous an assertion).... Segregating target audiences audience by ethic groups isn't necessarily playing the race card (to me at least). When I think race card I think of a seemingly far fetched implication of racism/racial discrimination...seeking some alternate agenda (kinda like racial propaganda)

I agree with you in the sense that I'm not sure if there is a hard and fast division of audiences along racial lines... I think the Sopranos appealed to all mainstream audiences across ethnicities (black & white), whereas the wire's viewing audience (in the beginning) was initially limited to those who were able to see through the less than over-hyped marketing and take a chance on the series potentially being as compelling as the Sopranos...before HBO began to market it as its premier Sunday evening drama series....
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 06:43:43 PM by kicker »
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Offline noname

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2008, 06:42:28 PM »

Thanks very much.  Watched it on saturday thanks to you.  Great finale!  Thanks again!
Yea man....no probs..was kinda disappointed in the finale but that might be cause it have nothing to look forward to right now.


Offline palos

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2008, 02:31:11 PM »

Thanks very much.  Watched it on saturday thanks to you.  Great finale!  Thanks again!
Yea man....no probs..was kinda disappointed in the finale but that might be cause it have nothing to look forward to right now.



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Offline JDB

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2008, 07:48:52 AM »
For me it is.....by far.

Kinda sad Snoop dead tho.  She went real sorf.  Woulda expeck she to go dong in a blaze a glory.  Instead....dey had she goin out like a real gyul..."How meh hair lookin Michael?"

A couple people whose opinion I value have described this as the best show on TV EVER.

Haven’t seen an episode yet but I trust that it is collection worthy so I want to get seasons 1-4 on DVD.

Only problem is that I know I will not have time to watch it, for a while so I might as well wait until blu-ray or something else becomes standard. Also HBO’s box sets are ridiculously priced.

But if palos say it good too that might tip me over the edge to at least buy one season.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2008, 08:39:55 AM »
I not buying de opening paragraph.  America has always been fascinated with mobsters...typical trainwreck syndrome.  Crack dealers by comparison come dime a dozen.  The demographic the two shows appeal to are radically divergent and unfortunately the money is with the Soprano crowd...and HBO has been commiserate in promoting the show accordingly.  All this aside from the plaudits from critics and the ACE voters.

To trying and play the race card on this one is simply silly.

I don't interpret the first paragraph as playing the race card. I think it's saying pretty much what you're saying.

The demographic the two shows appeal to are radically divergent and unfortunately the money is with the Soprano crowd...and HBO has been commiserate in promoting the show accordingly.

The reason why The Wire hasn't moved from an underground cult show to a mainstream hit is primarily because it's about an uncomfortable topic (the failure of one of America's major cities) and by and large the main cast of characters are black who white audiences have little or no connection with.

-the shows appeal to different audiences. One is more mainstream, and lucrative than the other....I don't see an implication of "racism" per se against the Wire- but merely an implication of a varying sense of association across the "divergent viewing demographics"- as you call them....If anything it's just implying that the white audience is by and large the mainstream audience (Ain't that outrageous an assertion).... Segregating target audiences audience by ethic groups isn't necessarily playing the race card (to me at least). When I think race card I think of a seemingly far fetched implication of racism/racial discrimination...seeking some alternate agenda (kinda like racial propaganda)

I agree with you in the sense that I'm not sure if there is a hard and fast division of audiences along racial lines... I think the Sopranos appealed to all mainstream audiences across ethnicities (black & white), whereas the wire's viewing audience (in the beginning) was initially limited to those who were able to see through the less than over-hyped marketing and take a chance on the series potentially being as compelling as the Sopranos...before HBO began to market it as its premier Sunday evening drama series....

The difference is, and my contention is with the notion that white people won't watch The Wire because they can't connect with the black characters.  Truth is, white people can't connect with the Italian mobsters on the screen either, to them a glimpse into the world of the mob is every bit the train wreck that the life of an urban crack dealer offers, however American movies have historically romanticized the mobster...to them it's more appealing.  It has nothing to do with them 'connecting' better with the characters.  Even if you speak to many Italians they too find the world of the mobster an alien experience...aside from the food and occasional lingo, they simply can't relate...and many even find it abhorrent.

So to sum...the "connection" thing is nonsense.

Offline JDB

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2008, 10:58:59 AM »
Not 1 episode yet. Maybe I'll just rent the ting and take a peep. Same with 24, never sit dong in front that one yet.



Yeah that is the good and bad of these intense serials like 24, Lost, Prison break, Jericho etc.

They have a core audience who slavishly follow the show every week…but it turns off people who did not get in on ground zero and those who know that they will not be able to watch every week.

I bought the Lost season DVD after the first season. Refused to watch Season 2 until I was caught up on Season 1. Never found the time to start Season 1 so I finally watched the first couple episodes of Season 3 and then just bailed because I felt that I was “missing” too much of the backstory.

On the other hand I watched every episode of Heroes and Sopranos just because I got in on the ground floor and did not want to give it up.
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Offline kicker

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2008, 02:43:36 PM »
The difference is, and my contention is with the notion that white people won't watch The Wire because they can't connect with the black characters. 

I don't see that as an outrageous assertion- but I agree with you you in that I don't think it's a mere colour thing, but I don't think the article is implying that either- I think the article is speaking more of cultural association, than racial...(if there is a difference lol)...and I didn't really see a race card (by definition) being drawn.....

Truth is, white people can't connect with the Italian mobsters on the screen either, to them a glimpse into the world of the mob is every bit the train wreck that the life of an urban crack dealer offers,

How do you know this?  Sounds like a huge assumption that mobster life, and inner city crack head life are held on the same level of disfunctionality....unless you are white and consider your perception to be representative of the whole, or you have surveyed a significant white sample to derive this.... And since when can "white people" all be lumped into one group for such a generalization? I know yuh didn't mean it like that, and we just talking loosely in brief sentences...point being- I still think that's a tough assumption to make- Agreed that in general they are both perceived as alternative underground disfunctional lifestyles...but are the two disfunctional lifestyles perceived in the exact light by "white people" ?- I can't venture to assume that....and I might even disagree if forced to put my head on a block

however American movies have historically romanticized the mobster...

ask yourself why Hollywood hasn't had success (or even tried) to romanticize the inner city lifestyle as it has that of the Italian mobster-

to them it's more appealing.  It has nothing to do with them 'connecting' better with the characters. 

It's appealing, but has nothing to do with connecting better with the characters....isn't that somewhat of a self-contradiction? Can't a sense of appeal at least have something to do with a sense of connection? Maybe not a connection on a purely racial level but on a cultural level....

Even if you speak to many Italians they too find the world of the mobster an alien experience...aside from the food and occasional lingo, they simply can't relate...and many even find it abhorrent.

Yeah agree with that, but they don't comprise the "mainstream" audience that subscribed their interest to the Sopranos over the Wire, so that's kinda beside the point....I interpret their grouse to in part be over accidental stereotying of their culture, which is a different issue altogether

So to sum...the "connection" thing is nonsense.

I ain't think the "connection thing" is as much nonsense as you call it. I think the marketing decision makers do alotta research when deciding which show to pump their marketing dollars into, to whom, and why...and I think the "why" part of it has to do with some estimated or perceived connection/association with the subject matter & the characters amongst different target groups...and while I (we) agree the association may not necessarily a pure race thing, to dismiss the notion of cultural association which can in many cases border or race could be overly dismissive.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 02:47:20 PM by kicker »
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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2008, 08:56:24 PM »
I don't see that as an outrageous assertion- but I agree with you you in that I don't think it's a mere colour thing, but I don't think the article is implying that either- I think the article is speaking more of cultural association, than racial...(if there is a difference lol)...and I didn't really see a race card (by definition) being drawn.....

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

How do you know this?  Sounds like a huge assumption that mobster life, and inner city crack head life are held on the same level of disfunctionality....unless you are white and consider your perception to be representative of the whole, or you have surveyed a significant white sample to derive this.... And since when can "white people" all be lumped into one group for such a generalization? I know yuh didn't mean it like that, and we just talking loosely in brief sentences...point being- I still think that's a tough assumption to make- Agreed that in general they are both perceived as alternative underground disfunctional lifestyles...but are the two disfunctional lifestyles perceived in the exact light by "white people" ?- I can't venture to assume that....and I might even disagree if forced to put my head on a block

yeah, I can't speak authoritatively on that issue seeing that I'm not white.  However, based on my interactions with a handful of Soprano fans (literally just a handful), and based on an article I read years ago about the popularity of the series...it gave me some insight as to how many whites apparently view the mob.  Based on statements made by other Italians, it made me realize that most of them apparently are ashamed of the mob stereotypes and cringe whenever they're put on display...much like you and I might cringe if we were watching a Trini passa passa vid with some white people.

So yeah...it was an assumption on my part that their experiences spoke to a more general white experience, they're not anymore a monolith than we are so I definitely can be wrong.  I would have qualified my statements had I known it would lead to any indepth analysis (being honest, not sarcastic).

ask yourself why Hollywood hasn't had success (or even tried) to romanticize the inner city lifestyle as it has that of the Italian mobster-

Because the mobster era harkens back to a nostalgic period in American history...New Deal era, pull yourself up by the bootstraps kinda thing.  As ruthless as these gangsters were, they lived by a credo...honor among thieves kinda thing.  it's total bullshit of course, but played in the right context and to the right audience and it sells.

meanwhile the urban crack dealer only reinforces an already negative view that many have of inner city life.  not only is it alien, but also hostile territory.  there is no honor in crack.  Dude's will kill their own mother for a hit or if she's messing with their stash.  The Italian mob also likes to play up this notion of family and fraternity that resonates well within the right context (context as mentioned here meaning a redeeming storyline).  There are many ways to dress up crime.  Then when you look at the type of crime, they're definitely not victimless...but shaking down the local shopkeeper and trash man is a little different from the carjacking, purse-snatching, knocking Grandma over the head....cold-blooded murders, drive-bys that kill school kids...I'm also not naive enough to think that race doesn't play a factor as well.

Crack just not as sexy.  What can I tell you.


It's appealing, but has nothing to do with connecting better with the characters....isn't that somewhat of a self-contradiction? Can't a sense of appeal at least have something to do with a sense of connection? Maybe not a connection on a purely racial level but on a cultural level....

Of course a sense of appeal CAN have something to do with a connection on a certain basic level...but that isn't necessarily the case, as you seemingly imply.  I see nothing contradictory about it.  Take your pick:

mob flicks
Horror movies
Foreign film
Samurai flicks
Kick ups

...I could go on and on.  I find these appealing....but I'd be lying if I say i ever really connect with any of the characters on the screen.  So yeah, I can see white people finding appeal in Mobster flicks w/o them actually connecting with the characters.

Yeah agree with that, but they don't comprise the "mainstream" audience that subscribed their interest to the Sopranos over the Wire, so that's kinda beside the point....I interpret their grouse to in part be over accidental stereotying of their culture, which is a different issue altogether


I ain't think the "connection thing" is as much nonsense as you call it. I think the marketing decision makers do alotta research when deciding which show to pump their marketing dollars into, to whom, and why...and I think the "why" part of it has to do with some estimated or perceived connection/association with the subject matter & the characters amongst different target groups...and while I (we) agree the association may not necessarily a pure race thing, to dismiss the notion of cultural association which can in many cases border or race could be overly dismissive.
Quote

What you see as a 'connection/association' I see as simple appeal.  I also love Marvel movies...Spiderman, Hulk...Iron Man.  Can't connect/relate/associate with any of the characters though because they tend to be caricatures of real people...but it's fun watching them on screen.  I think many white Americans share a detached fascination with gangster movies...a morbid curiousity with the darker aspects of Americana....pretty much the same reason why I used to be a fan of HBO's 'America Undercover' series.  I hardly think I connect with the pimps and ho's of Hunter's Point though.

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2008, 08:47:14 AM »
Was going to say the same thing that you said in your last paragraph i.e.- all depends on the definition of connection- You define connection in a somewhat pragmatic way, so a real life person can't really "connect" with a super hero, or someone with no ties, affiliation or even affinity to a gangster lifestyle or culture can't really "connect" with a ganster/mobster..... hence what you observe is more a fantastic appeal that can't really be defined.... whereas I see it all as potentially some kinda connection on different levels appealing to different senses, some easier to pinpoint and define than others....If that wasn't the case then movie viewers could only connect with characters that are clearly similar to themselves- and I'm not sure if that's the case....(to me at least).........more a play on words than a divergent view....
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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2008, 09:13:14 AM »
Was going to say the same thing that you said in your last paragraph i.e.- all depends on the definition of connection- You define connection in a somewhat pragmatic way, so a real life person can't really "connect" with a super hero, or someone with no ties, affiliation or even affinity to a gangster lifestyle or culture can't really "connect" with a ganster/mobster..... hence what you observe is more a fantastic appeal that can't really be defined.... whereas I see it all as potentially some kinda connection on different levels appealing to different senses, some easier to pinpoint and define than others....If that wasn't the case then movie viewers could only connect with characters that are clearly similar to themselves- and I'm not sure if that's the case....(to me at least).........more a play on words than a divergent view....


Thoroughly disagree.

I never said that a real life person can't connect...what I did say is that I don't think that people are fascinated with the Sopranos because of any connection they feel to the characters.  Having been the student of quite a number of film classes as an undergrad I guess mine is more of an analytical mind.  My girlfriend hates going to the movies with me because often times I know where it's going long before it reaches, and little things that others overlook I tend to pick up on.  Not trying to say "I special, I have training"...but I mention that to say that with very rare exception I tend to watch movies from a totally detached perspective, and so when I read years ago that part of the appeal was the train wreck effect, I totally understood.

Now to me when you speak of a "connection" with a character, I think of someone identifying with that character or relating to them in some way.  Maybe that's different from your intent...and I sense that may be the case.  Others reading on might think all this amounts to overanalysis, but I enjoy the different perspectives and thought it would be rude to not at least put forth an attempt to explain.

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Re: The Wire....Best show on TV?
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2008, 10:01:48 AM »
Was going to say the same thing that you said in your last paragraph i.e.- all depends on the definition of connection- You define connection in a somewhat pragmatic way, so a real life person can't really "connect" with a super hero, or someone with no ties, affiliation or even affinity to a gangster lifestyle or culture can't really "connect" with a ganster/mobster..... hence what you observe is more a fantastic appeal that can't really be defined.... whereas I see it all as potentially some kinda connection on different levels appealing to different senses, some easier to pinpoint and define than others....If that wasn't the case then movie viewers could only connect with characters that are clearly similar to themselves- and I'm not sure if that's the case....(to me at least).........more a play on words than a divergent view....


Thoroughly disagree.

I never said that a real life person can't connect...what I did say is that I don't think that people are fascinated with the Sopranos because of any connection they feel to the characters.  Having been the student of quite a number of film classes as an undergrad I guess mine is more of an analytical mind.  My girlfriend hates going to the movies with me because often times I know where it's going long before it reaches, and little things that others overlook I tend to pick up on.  Not trying to say "I special, I have training"...but I mention that to say that with very rare exception I tend to watch movies from a totally detached perspective, and so when I read years ago that part of the appeal was the train wreck effect, I totally understood.

Now to me when you speak of a "connection" with a character, I think of someone identifying with that character or relating to them in some way.  Maybe that's different from your intent...and I sense that may be the case.  Others reading on might think all this amounts to overanalysis, but I enjoy the different perspectives and thought it would be rude to not at least put forth an attempt to explain.

hmmm I hear what you say.....and I'm sure you know what you're talking about and where you intend to go with your view.....but it still doesn't make perfect sense to me....and no disrespect but the scholarly theses for eg the trainwreck effect are just interpretations and opinions, based on some understanding of human behavior, that one can choose to subscribe to at their own will. If it ain't proven science (correct me if it is), then it's just an opinion....an educated opinion sure enough (more educated than mine  ;D), and while I'm sure it has its merits, it ain't necessarily the whole gospel to me, and I'm not sure if it pertains to all audiences....... That said, I'm also not sure how one determines & proves whether the root of a defined appeal  is character association, or a mere fascination with the train wreck syndrome for eg, how one would separate the two factors, and how one determines how one factor could perhaps influence the other.... without a very strict and very narrow definition of the term "connection" with a character- which is why I thought you were attempting to narrowly define connection so as to delineate the two "factors"-(which mind you are just two of a potential many factors each with their own varying influences).... At the risk of turning this discussion into one of linear regression  ;D, I'll stop here because I gather you know where I'm headed- hence my original position that dismissing the "connection" with character factor as nonsense is probably overly dismissive.

Forget Sopranos vs The Wire for a second, and imagine if there was a Japanese version of "Goodfellas" - same character roles, same plot, same story (based on a true story as well), same era, same trainwreck syndrome at play.....but based around the Japanese mob.... do you think it could have been marketed in the U.S, to the same audience and with the same success as Goodfellas?  My opinion is that how people relate to a character (that connection), can't be fully defined, quantified, or rationalized, and it's effects on the overall appeal to a theatrical piece is difficult to measure, and even more difficult to dismiss when assessing two potentially divergent target audiences as in the case of the Sopranos & the Wire.... I did some film & theatre study in college as well, but I don't know if it has anything to do with my view.
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