Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?

[kicker]

It's just that...Argentina is Italy's descendants...we all know how Italy feels about "outsiders."

Veron is the closest they go get.

Iz a bunch ah racist there that play some nice football

Argentina isn't "Italy's descendants"... there are people from all over Europe in Argentina, including Italians.

Even so, not all Italians are unwelcoming to outsiders... speaking from my limited experience.

I'm surprised you even bother to respond to that.

I read some perspectives here and could only shake my head at the narrowness (often coupled with righteous indignation to boot)...but I guess to each his/her own...

[Peong]

Come nah man, everybody knows that Argentina is mostly Italian descendants.
And who here doh know that there are other ppl in Argentina besides Italians?
What ProudTrinbagonian said is not misleading unless what he said is your only source of info on Argentina and that cah happen.
Allyuh nitpickin.

[Bakes]

I'm surprised you even bother to respond to that.

I read some perspectives here and could only shake my head at the narrowness (often coupled with righteous
indignation to boot)...but I guess to each his/her own...

I doh think there was any malice intended by his statement I think he genuinely believe what he said, which is why I responded. I think many are responding from the limited info that they have... which is to say they are speaking out of ignorance.

Come nah man, everybody knows that Argentina is mostly Italian descendants.
And who here doh know that there are other ppl in Argentina besides Italians?
What ProudTrinbagonian said is not misleading unless what he said is your only source of info on Argentina and that cah happen.
Allyuh nitpickin.

Of course what he said is misleading when he states that Argentina is comprised of Italy's descendants.  Either his statement is inaccurate or it's not... what other sources we might have to supplement his statement or refute it is beside the point.  Emphasis isn't on what WE know it's on what HE said... your response is a case of spurious logic at best... put plainly, it makes no sense.

That aside, I'm curious to know how many Italians he's actully met to make such a categorical statement implying that Italians are xenophobic... when evidence to the contrary is clear.  Italy has its share of incidents involving race like many other European nations, and indeed no different from the US and Canada... how then does Italy end up being singled out for criticism... and how when we refute that does it become 'nitpicking'?

[Peong]

The nitpicking part was when yuh said that Argentina isn't Italy's descendants even though the majority of them are.

I didn't touch the other part of your comment.

[kicker]

The nitpicking part was when yuh said that Argentina isn't Italy's descendants even though the majority of them are.

I didn't touch the other part of your comment.

It's not as much of a majority as you're implying...A large % of Argentines are of spanish descent.  From my understanding 50-60% of Argentine whites have "Italian blood"... Not all of those are pure Italians...some are mixed (e.g. Spanish and other European blood as well)...Argentine whites are predominantly Spanish & Italian...so you would have to figure that a large % of Argentine whites also have spanish blood (pure & mixed)...  So to press the brakes on a statement like Argentina is Italy's descendants isn't really nitpicking in my opinion....or maybe I'm nitpicking about your use of the word nitpicking   

[Peong]

Ok kicker.

In any case when it comes to race issues I personally don't give Argentina the benefit of the doubt.

[kicker]

Ok kicker.

In any case when it comes to race issues I personally don't give Argentina the benefit of the doubt.

Doh sound like there's any doubt to begin with lol

 

[Bakes]

Ok kicker.

In any case when it comes to race issues I personally don't give Argentina the benefit of the doubt.

To be honest with you I don't disagree... there is credible evidence that the Argentine government in the past has attempted to literally whitewash the populace of any black trace.  We've been thru this before... I think in this very thread I posted about it back on page one or two.  My disagreement was with him casting Argentina essentially as a "Little Italy" and then extrapolating perceived Argentinian attitudes about race onto all of Italy.  That's like saying, "indians in TnT racist... they are descended from Indians on the continent, ergo Indians on the continent must be racist as well".  Not sure how sound a leap that is.

(btw to others observing... lest we ge sidetracked again, the comments about 'indians' are for illustration only)

[Gauchita]

Wow, just finishing reading this thread and I was quite surprised at the following:

1. The interest of locals about race issues in Argentina.

2. Misconceptions and misunderstandings of what Argentinians consider "black" and the use of the term.

3. The quick assumption of racism because there are no Afro-Argentinians in our football national team.

I saw that some statistics were provided in this thread, I am not going to verify them but I would simply share my experience as someone who was born and was raised there.

First of all, most Argentinians are not wealthy and because of that, very few get the chance to travel abroad for any period of time. When we go on vacation, we usually choose our own beaches as travel destinations or perhaps if we have a little money we go to Uruguay or Brazil.

What most Argentinians know about the USA, England or Europe in general is just from television. A lot of us have Italian or Spaniard grandparents and their culture is visibly in Argentina's society that have adapted these traditions as their own. And yes, most Argentinians consider themselves "European descendants" and they are very proud of their heritage and it is quite shocking for them when they travel abroad and realize they are considered "latinos".

There is a saying Argentinians say which is "There are no blacks in Argentina". I know when someone hears a comment like that, they believe it is racist because they are rejecting the very tiny Afro-Argentine presence in the country but let me tell you, it is NOT the reason. I would dare to say that the "white" population in Trinidad is way bigger than our own Afro-Argentinian population. Why do I say that? Because I can travel anywhere around in Trinidad, specially in the West and I see local "whites" HOWEVER, the few times in my entire life that I have seen Black people in Argentina, they were either Brazilian or Uruguayans. This does NOT mean we do not have Afro-Argentinians but I am trying to illustrate the point of how rare is to walk around the city and meet one so it is not shocking or surprising why we do not see more Afro-Argentinians in our football teams.

So when Argentinians say "there are no blacks in Argentina" they do not mean it out of racism, they say it out of naivety and ignorance because a lot of them never met an Afro-Argentinian before OR they surely met one but they are so mixed that you can no longer tell. Now, this does not mean there is no racism or prejudice in the country. Of course there is, usually prevalent against Bolivians and Paraguayans. But again, this type of prejudice happens all over the world.

Third, some posters mentioned Juan Sebastian Veron as an example of an Afro-Argentinian. He is not considered Afro-Argentinian, he is considered a dark skinned Argentinian which we refer to as "morocho". Now the word "negro" in Argentina is used in two ways. One way is an affectionate way, friends call each other "negro" or "negrito" regardless of how you look. So yes, if you happen to be blonde with blue eyes a friend  can call you "negro" or "negrito"and we also use "gordo" and "flaco" (fat and slim) in the same way.

When we use the word "negro" in other contexts, we do not mean "Afro descendant" but we mean any dark skinned Argentinian. The word "negro" could be used to describe people but it is not commonly acceptable, it all depends on the context and how it is being said, we rather the term "morocho" than "negro".

Just like most local "whites" are mixed in Trinidad, Argentinians are also of mixed heritage (whether both groups want to accept it or not or even know that they are mixed, is another story).

[asylumseeker]

Wow, just finishing reading this thread and I was quite surprised at the following:

1. The interest of locals about race issues in Argentina.

...

There's a lot to respond to in your post. I've decided it would be best to address the items separately rather than collectively.

Part of why interest in the African experience in Argentina exists is due to (1) historical realities and historical forces and (2) contemporary events. Below, I've provided two examples related to the numbered reasons I've mentioned.

(1) Unos 12 millones de africanos esclavizados desembarcaron en América latina entre los siglos XVI y XIX. Buenos Aires y Montevideo se constituyeron en los puertos más importantes del Atlántico sur y surtieron todo el interior de Sudamérica. (...) Si efectuamos el cálculo de que por cada individuo que arribaba vivo a estas costas, cinco perecían por inanición, enfermedades, deshidratación, castigos diversos y suicidios, encontramos que el tráfico esclavista le provocó a África una sangría de más de 60 millones de personas" (Del libro "A los negros argentinos ¡Salud!", de Ângela Corrêa).

Translation: Roughly 12 million enslaved Africans arrived in Latin America between the 16th and 19th centuries. Buenos Aires and Montevideo were the most important ports in the South Atlantic and supplied labour for the interior of the continent. (...) If we make the calculation that, for every individual who arrived, five died en route from starvation, disease, dehydration, various punishments and suicide, we find that the slave trade implicitly involved more than 60 million African captives (From the book: "A los negros argentinos ¡Salud!", by Ângela Corrêa).

(2) El 22 de agosto de 2002 (hace una década) la Policía Aeronáutica detuvo durante seis horas a María Magdalena Lamadrid, argentina de quinta generación, por entonces de 57 años y descendiente de una pareja de esclavos de los tiempos del Virreynato. Ella había presentado su pasaporte para viajar a Panamá, pero las autoridades de Migraciones consideraron falsa la documentación. "No puede ser argentina y negra", le dijeron.

Translation: In August 2002, Argentinian authorities questioned the validity of the passport of a 57 year woman who was attempting to board a plane to Panama. The woman, María Magdalena Lamadrid, a 5th generation Argentine, was the descendant of enslaved forebears. During a six-hour long detention, the authorities expressed that she couldn't be both Argentinian and black.

http://www.lagaceta.com.ar/nota/501897/se-asumen-afrodescendientes-150000-argentinos.html?origen=mlt

On this forum we address a wide range of issues. Some repeatedly. Given the above, there are experiential themes that would resonate with Trinbagonians regarding wanting to learn and understand more about a nation with which we have a linguistic barrier, yet certain common historicities and a passion for football.

There's also reason (3): The impact of past World Cups in presenting ethnic diversity. People came to observe players of African descent representing nations that were counterintuitive with such representation. The breadth of the African diaspora opened people's minds and curiosities. Argentina came to be investigated vis-a-vis its neighbours. Questions started to be asked. Are there black ppl in Argentina? How did they get there? What's their history? As you can imagine, millions of enslaved arrivals prompted a question.

Our school curricula didn't delve into the enslavement of Africans in South America, despite amply referencing Bartolome de las Casas as a protector of the indigenous. But for football and Pele, who knows when we would have discovered afrodescendants in Brazil.

[Gauchita]

asylumseeker, thank you for your references. I do not know if they do it now in Argentina, but when I was in school (both primary and secondary school) we covered Argentina history but slavery was not study in depth at all, there were mentions of it here and there but that's about it. There was never a focus on it and I suppose that's a big part of the ignorance I was referring to in my earlier post.

Historians cannot even agree in what exactly happened in Argentina, and why there is not visibly black people in the country even though we had millions of them living there. In my personal view, it was a combination of factors. An Argentina who wanted a "white and European" country and sent blacks to fight to wars, shipped them across to Brazil or Uruguay and a lot of them intermixed with European descendants. Hence, when one Afro-Argentinian group claims we have around 1 or 2 million Afro-Argentinians in the country everyone has the impression that you walk around and see some black people like you see some "white" people in Trinidad and it is NOT the case. If those numbers are correct, the people in question are so mixed that you cannot longer tell.

Growing up, I used to watch a tv show where a child and his parents were Afro-Argentinians. I will try to look for pictures, there is another actress which I think is also Afro-Argentinian. It's not like Argentinians deny their existence on purpose or out of racism, it is because it is not a common occurrence to meet one. And again, perhaps we meet one but we do not know they are Afro-descendants and possibly they themselves do not know.

And this rare occurrence is now transferred to other aspects, hence the ignorance of immigration officers towards María Magdalena Lamadrid. Someone will shout racism because it indeed sounds and looks like it when they say "you cannot be Argentinian, you are black". It is just horrible to hear that, but I hope I explained why you get this sort of reaction. This does not mean that some Argentinians are not racist towards Afro-Argentinians or any other ethnicity. Yet again, racism is present in every country.

[Coop's]

Guichita,nuff respect to u on this topic,u have me in school,now the little i know of Argentina is through Football,one think that always came to the forefront was that same misunderstanding of the race issues,i've been following your posts and it's quite interesting how u are explaining this thing,i doubt it could be said better.

When i was resident in the US i had the opportunity the opportunity to work with an Argentinian Coach at a club call Richmond Strikers,his name was Carlos Martinoli,i learned so much from this guy we became best friends because he had all the liscenses etc etc from Argentina,i used to be amazed of his techniques when demonstrating he made everything look so easy,Carlos is still my friend although i'm back home.

[elan]

Apparently Italy and Argentina are really that close "there's no such thing as a black Italian."

[Bakes]

And this rare occurrence is now transferred to other aspects, hence the ignorance of immigration officers towards María Magdalena Lamadrid. Someone will shout racism because it indeed sounds and looks like it when they say "you cannot be Argentinian, you are black". It is just horrible to hear that, but I hope I explained why you get this sort of reaction. This does not mean that some Argentinians are not racist towards Afro-Argentinians or any other ethnicity. Yet again, racism is present in every country.

So they look at her, look at her valid passport, deny her passage on account of her race... but that's not racism?


Lol... this bullshit.

[asylumseeker]

Apparently Italy and Argentina are really that close "there's no such thing as a black Italian."

I forgot about that!

(If nobody else here, you hadda meet Balo some time).

[asylumseeker]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/WC0CBhjnaLM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/WC0CBhjnaLM</a>

[Trini _2026]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/IkqlKOUUVa4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/IkqlKOUUVa4</a>

[Gauchita]

And this rare occurrence is now transferred to other aspects, hence the ignorance of immigration officers towards María Magdalena Lamadrid. Someone will shout racism because it indeed sounds and looks like it when they say "you cannot be Argentinian, you are black". It is just horrible to hear that, but I hope I explained why you get this sort of reaction. This does not mean that some Argentinians are not racist towards Afro-Argentinians or any other ethnicity. Yet again, racism is present in every country.

So they look at her, look at her valid passport, deny her passage on account of her race... but that's not racism?

I think I explained that in my earlier post.  I am not condoning what they did to this woman but I also fully understand the lack of knowledge about Afro-Argentinians in the country and that's not racism but plain ignorance.

 HOWEVER, as I said before, this does not mean there is no racism in Argentina towards Afro-Argentinians or any other ethnic group because of course, just like any other country it exists. You do not have to take my word for it but I would hope people who are reading this know I was born and raised there so my position should have some weight versus anyone else who never lived in the country or forms an opinion by hearsay. Not saying a person cannot have an opinion if they never visited Argentina BUT their views are limited if they never experienced what life in Argentina is like.

[Gauchita]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/IkqlKOUUVa4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/IkqlKOUUVa4</a>

I wasn't able to play the second video but I wanted to highlight the first one you posted because that's exactly what I have been trying to explain. If Afro-Argentinians were that common in the country, would other Argentinians ask the same lady in the video where is she from? (automatically assuming she is not Argentinian). How can then anyone say that the cause of no Afro-Argentinians in our football team is due to racism?

[Gauchita]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/WC0CBhjnaLM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/WC0CBhjnaLM</a>

Great video. The first guy speaks just like an Argentinian even though he is from Uruguay.

[asylumseeker]

Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?

[Bakes]

I wasn't able to play the second video but I wanted to highlight the first one you posted because that's exactly what I have been trying to explain. If Afro-Argentinians were that common in the country, would other Argentinians ask the same lady in the video where is she from? (automatically assuming she is not Argentinian). How can then anyone say that the cause of no Afro-Argentinians in our football team is due to racism?

You miss the point spectacularly.  If Argentina, historically had similar levels of African peoples as its neighbors, and particular, systemic actions were taken to rid the country of that African presence, to the point that today they are so underrepresented as to be invisible to their fellow countryment... then that state was achieved by racist policies/is the result of racism.  Whether there are some in Argentinian football who harbor racist ideas towards Afrodescendientes or not, that is tangential to the fact that racism has so diluted the population of Afrodescendientes in Argentina.

[maxg]

http://www.ibtimes.com/blackout-how-argentina-eliminated-africans-its-history-conscience-1289381

[Gauchita]

I wasn't able to play the second video but I wanted to highlight the first one you posted because that's exactly what I have been trying to explain. If Afro-Argentinians were that common in the country, would other Argentinians ask the same lady in the video where is she from? (automatically assuming she is not Argentinian). How can then anyone say that the cause of no Afro-Argentinians in our football team is due to racism?

You miss the point spectacularly.  If Argentina, historically had similar levels of African peoples as its neighbors, and particular, systemic actions were taken to rid the country of that African presence, to the point that today they are so underrepresented as to be invisible to their fellow countryment... then that state was achieved by racist policies/is the result of racism.  Whether there are some in Argentinian football who harbor racist ideas towards Afrodescendientes or not, that is tangential to the fact that racism has so diluted the population of Afrodescendientes in Argentina.

Not missing the point. In several  of my posts I stated  my position with regards to the ignorance of most Argentinians with regards to Afro-descendants in the country and I said that it does not mean there is no racism against them or any other ethnicity, and it is NOT unique to Argentina that's one point. The second, I do not think anyone is arguing that have been measures in place in Argentina history that tried to make the population "white" (and I also stated that earlier on) and there has been a lot of discussion and research about what exactly took place with a lot of different views explaining what happened.

If the visible presence of Afro-Argentinians is so tiny why is it so surprising that we do not have Afro-Argentinians in our present football team? That's my point.

I am not here to "defend" Argentina but I feel the need to state that a lot of you are talking with limited understanding and perhaps judging an entire nation about what other Argentinians and non-Argentinians did centuries ago. There is racism in Argentina just like there is racism in T&T and everywhere else.

No offense, I have no problem in exchanging views if any of you lived in the country for a long period of time, it is sort of senseless to try to explain this topic further and link it to culture, Argentinian's mindset mixed with history if the other person did not experience what is like to live there and their knowledge is limited to the internet or hearsay.

I will summarize my points and leave it there:

1. Most Argentinians truly and genuinely, do not know about the existence of Afro-Argentinians in the country because as I explained before and as it was repeated by one of the ladies in the video, when you do meet a black person you instantly assume they are foreigners.

2. Because of point number 1 it is not surprising why we do not have Afro-Argentinians in our football team. The size of our visible Afro-Argentinian community is NOT even remotely close to the "local white" community in Trinidad and Tobago. That's just to show how tiny really is.

I think I am repeating myself so I will leave it like that. Thanks everyone for the chance to explain this.

[Gauchita]

Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?

At least 10-12 provinces.

[Bakes]

If the visible presence of Afro-Argentinians is so tiny why is it so surprising that we do not have Afro-Argentinians in our present football team? That's my point.

Yes, like I said, you miss the point spectacularly.  If you're not missing the point as you protest... then you conveniently fail to link the racist policies of the past (and I'm being charitable here in saying that the policies have been limited to the past) and the paucity of Afro-Argentinians today.  I explained to you in great detail that whether we don't see black faces among the Albiceleste due to football admins and coaches not wanting them in the team, is beside the point.  The artificially low count of afro-descended Argentinians is the direct result of racism.  At best, their exclusion from the national is indirectly a product of that same racism.

[asylumseeker]

Gauchita, there are some items you seem to be "smoothing over" out of concern for indicting Argentina. I urge you to fill in the gaps in continued good faith. The risk is that you project a superficial treatment of the full picture. For me, it serves no useful purpose to assert that all societies are racist. That does not (and should not) absolve those of us with a heightened sense of social engagement from tackling difficult issues.

With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?

[ribbit]

Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?

At least 10-12 provinces.

asylumseeker, how extensively have you travelled within argentina? just for comparison sake.

[asylumseeker]

Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?

At least 10-12 provinces.

asylumseeker, how extensively have you travelled within argentina? just for comparison sake.

Since yuh bold meh name and ting, ah sure the answer is likely to disappoint you.

[Thomo]

Personally I think arguing this topic is a waste of time. Look we all know what happened in the past in Argentina (to be specific), let's just move on from it now. We can't change the past, we can only improve the future. Gauchita and his countrymen aren't responsible for the deeds of his ancestors nor am I for mine.